I once heard that when this era of bishops etc die, the young clergy will rejoice and rediscover Catholic tradition as a living tradition and heritage to be treasured.
Really great article, thanks. I do a lot of church-crawling in the uk, exploring our oldest churches and of course people forget that there were screens between the nave and chancel so that the view of the Holy rites was restricted, in addition to the silent Canon, etc. That sense of the sacred appears to have been progressively junked in the last few hundred years. We are now at a stage in NO churches where even on the most important days of the year, there is no ritual - no incense, no holy water, no processions, just the interminable turgid prose of the NO mass, same as on every other day.
With some exceptions, what you say is sadly true. The rationalism and verbosity have taken over almost completely, and that is a large part of the reason why the mainstream Church's worship continues to bleed populations: there is no mystical magnetism whatsoever.
The best response to rationalism and verbosity in church is bis orat, qui cantat, provided that the words continue to be sung in a language not understanded of most of the people.
May 14, 2023·edited May 14, 2023Liked by Peter Kwasniewski
"the interminable turgid prose of the NO mass"
This is brilliant. It's something hard to notice when you're in it, but once you've seen it, it really hits you. A few years back I switched exclusively to attending the TLM. A couple of weeks ago, I attended Mass in the NO for the first time in a long while. The celebrant was a good man and a holy priest whom I admire -- but after hearing his microphone-enhanced voice endlessly booming throughout the entire liturgy, all I could think was "Could you please just STOP TALKING?!!"
Yes! In fact, it's quite impossible to pray in the Novus Ordo for long stretches, and I'm afraid that there are many who, showing up right as things begin, and slipping away right as they end, do not actually ever internally PRAY. As one liturgical commentator pointed out, the Novus Ordo, in the name of active participation, ironically promotes passivity, because everyone expects to be constantly spoon-fed by what is being said and done. There is no "space" within which the wings of one's soul can grow.
I agree with both you and Peter. Yesterday I attended my parish for confession, adoration/benediction and mass. After having attended the TLM for a while, I find it has helped me pray but it's just too much noise with no silence. And yes, people literally just go through the motions. The priest is good and takes his time with the consecration but it's just not the same. This morning I attended a solemn TLM mass (newly ordained priest) - two hours of reverent and meditative ritual and prayer, with gregorian chant and a choir singing sacred music. These two masses might be on different planets.
I take your third sentence -- "I find it has helped me pray but it's just too much noise with no silence" -- to mean that the TLM has helped you pray, but when you go back to the Novus Ordo, it's too noisy and unprayerful. Two different planets: this is no exaggeration. Strictly from the point of view of religion as a set of ritual practices aimed at theosis, one might say two different religions.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I found the mass difficult for many years, only after going to the TLM did I understand why. NO is like the frame of a Fiat 500 without the panels, windows, etc., just the engine. It's noisy and works to get you from A to B but it's clunky and noisy and not a great experience. The TLM, on the other hand, is like a Bentley, beautiful, quiet, and altogether a superior experience. I hope that's not heretical! It's just the way I visualise it.
I love sacred tradition, the Latin mass, jolly old England, tea, scones, Thomas Tallis, John Donne, Cardinal Newman, Our Lady of Walsingham, and English gardens. I couldn't watch the Coronation purely based on the fact that I think Charles is dishonorable. I don't like the cut of his jib.
Hi Peter, I must add that, as a Trad Catholic, I am shocked and puzzled by the secretive anointing in this Church of England ceremony. It was respectfully on display in "The Crown" too, which was the first time I'd seen it. "Sola scriptura" is replaced with a "tradition." It appears that tradition is reserved only for the crowning of a royal. I am unaware of an outcry among the "sola scriptura" Protest-ants. Do you know of any such objections you can send our way? Thanks.
I haven't been following the reactions of Protestants to the coronation, but certainly it comes as no surprise that the Anglican church is not, and could never be considered to be, a "sola scriptura" church. After all, the High Church side of things is heavily indebted to patristics and medieval tradition. That is why Newman was able to emerge out of it into the full light of (Tridentine, i.e., fully developed) Catholicism.
Another topic: all over the internet, Protestants comment using "Yashua" instead of Jesus. It's hugely popular. Do you have time to explain whether this is Judaised Christianity? As briefly mentioned by Nesta Webster in her 1923 book, "World Revolution: the Plot Against Civilization," I'm currently reading. God bless you!
Charles Windsor within a few days of his accession swore to maintain the Protestant status quo in Scotland at his coronation he did likewise for England.
Why at the latter why did Catholic and Orthodox prelates bless him? Something we need to know?
The ecumenical mishmash at events of this sort is unfortunate, as it sends mixed signals. And naturally, I can't approve one bit of the English monarchy's weddedness to Protestantism, which, as Fr. Hunwicke points out, was accentuated in this ceremony even more than it had been in the last coronations. However, my main point here is about solemnity and ceremonial.
Solemnity and ceremonial the official Anglicans do «studiedly», even «faultlessly».
I watched excerpts but the feeling that the thing itself was anachronistic was foremost in mind. The ceremonies of the Tridentine Mass are «old» but still «signify». The coronation ceremonies are contradictory in a constitutional monarchy, in that very Anglican indeed.
You're quite right, and that's probably the difference between pageantry (or "pomp and circumstance") and liturgical solemnity such as Catholics experience it week in, week out at the TLM. I know that my local Solemn Mass seems totally natural, unselfconscious, it's not a stage production, it's just the way things ought to be.
It seems that the vestments worn by the Abbey clergy were on loan from Westminster Cathedral, the items being considered more «splendid» than their own.
How can Fr. Joseph Selinger state that this was a Catholic Mass without there having been a consecrated Eucharist? Wasn't it more of a mimic of the Catholic Mass with a symbolic consecration? Shouldn't Catholics be reminded that this Mass was a protestant liturgy, not the Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass?
If you read carefully, he is not saying there was a Catholic Mass at the coronation, but only that the Catholic Mass, *like* the coronation, hides the most solemn moment (assuming the ad orientem stance). There is nothing in this article that asserts the sacramental validity of anything Anglican. Thank you for requesting a clarification.
I could delete it if you wish, but I think it's helpful to have the clarification in case anyone else is puzzled and thinks I'm promoting Anglicanism! (God forbid I should do that.)
Okay Peter, let's keep it for that purpose, but please know that I in no way perceived that you or Fr. Selinger were promoting Anglicanism. Nor do I think anyone else would even if they, too, misinterpreted the reference to the Catholic Mass. God bless
Baptism of Desire? I didn’t at any stage witness anything I would call mimicry. I too however thought of a symbolic consecration looking forward to the return to the real one. The Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass is gradually being reapproached with the protestantisers becoming far less virulent. I must find out more about the first King Charles.
I once heard that when this era of bishops etc die, the young clergy will rejoice and rediscover Catholic tradition as a living tradition and heritage to be treasured.
It is already happening.
Huzzah for Cardinal Burke and his use of the cappa magna!
Really great article, thanks. I do a lot of church-crawling in the uk, exploring our oldest churches and of course people forget that there were screens between the nave and chancel so that the view of the Holy rites was restricted, in addition to the silent Canon, etc. That sense of the sacred appears to have been progressively junked in the last few hundred years. We are now at a stage in NO churches where even on the most important days of the year, there is no ritual - no incense, no holy water, no processions, just the interminable turgid prose of the NO mass, same as on every other day.
With some exceptions, what you say is sadly true. The rationalism and verbosity have taken over almost completely, and that is a large part of the reason why the mainstream Church's worship continues to bleed populations: there is no mystical magnetism whatsoever.
The best response to rationalism and verbosity in church is bis orat, qui cantat, provided that the words continue to be sung in a language not understanded of most of the people.
"the interminable turgid prose of the NO mass"
This is brilliant. It's something hard to notice when you're in it, but once you've seen it, it really hits you. A few years back I switched exclusively to attending the TLM. A couple of weeks ago, I attended Mass in the NO for the first time in a long while. The celebrant was a good man and a holy priest whom I admire -- but after hearing his microphone-enhanced voice endlessly booming throughout the entire liturgy, all I could think was "Could you please just STOP TALKING?!!"
Yes! In fact, it's quite impossible to pray in the Novus Ordo for long stretches, and I'm afraid that there are many who, showing up right as things begin, and slipping away right as they end, do not actually ever internally PRAY. As one liturgical commentator pointed out, the Novus Ordo, in the name of active participation, ironically promotes passivity, because everyone expects to be constantly spoon-fed by what is being said and done. There is no "space" within which the wings of one's soul can grow.
"Promotes passivity" - such a great description for it. Bang on.
I agree with both you and Peter. Yesterday I attended my parish for confession, adoration/benediction and mass. After having attended the TLM for a while, I find it has helped me pray but it's just too much noise with no silence. And yes, people literally just go through the motions. The priest is good and takes his time with the consecration but it's just not the same. This morning I attended a solemn TLM mass (newly ordained priest) - two hours of reverent and meditative ritual and prayer, with gregorian chant and a choir singing sacred music. These two masses might be on different planets.
I take your third sentence -- "I find it has helped me pray but it's just too much noise with no silence" -- to mean that the TLM has helped you pray, but when you go back to the Novus Ordo, it's too noisy and unprayerful. Two different planets: this is no exaggeration. Strictly from the point of view of religion as a set of ritual practices aimed at theosis, one might say two different religions.
Yes, that's exactly what I mean. I found the mass difficult for many years, only after going to the TLM did I understand why. NO is like the frame of a Fiat 500 without the panels, windows, etc., just the engine. It's noisy and works to get you from A to B but it's clunky and noisy and not a great experience. The TLM, on the other hand, is like a Bentley, beautiful, quiet, and altogether a superior experience. I hope that's not heretical! It's just the way I visualise it.
I think if one were to use one article to counter all the complaints of those who want to do away with all formality in life, this is the article.
I love sacred tradition, the Latin mass, jolly old England, tea, scones, Thomas Tallis, John Donne, Cardinal Newman, Our Lady of Walsingham, and English gardens. I couldn't watch the Coronation purely based on the fact that I think Charles is dishonorable. I don't like the cut of his jib.
Hi Peter, I must add that, as a Trad Catholic, I am shocked and puzzled by the secretive anointing in this Church of England ceremony. It was respectfully on display in "The Crown" too, which was the first time I'd seen it. "Sola scriptura" is replaced with a "tradition." It appears that tradition is reserved only for the crowning of a royal. I am unaware of an outcry among the "sola scriptura" Protest-ants. Do you know of any such objections you can send our way? Thanks.
I haven't been following the reactions of Protestants to the coronation, but certainly it comes as no surprise that the Anglican church is not, and could never be considered to be, a "sola scriptura" church. After all, the High Church side of things is heavily indebted to patristics and medieval tradition. That is why Newman was able to emerge out of it into the full light of (Tridentine, i.e., fully developed) Catholicism.
Thank you for informing me. It makes sense now.
Another topic: all over the internet, Protestants comment using "Yashua" instead of Jesus. It's hugely popular. Do you have time to explain whether this is Judaised Christianity? As briefly mentioned by Nesta Webster in her 1923 book, "World Revolution: the Plot Against Civilization," I'm currently reading. God bless you!
Charles Windsor within a few days of his accession swore to maintain the Protestant status quo in Scotland at his coronation he did likewise for England.
Why at the latter why did Catholic and Orthodox prelates bless him? Something we need to know?
The ecumenical mishmash at events of this sort is unfortunate, as it sends mixed signals. And naturally, I can't approve one bit of the English monarchy's weddedness to Protestantism, which, as Fr. Hunwicke points out, was accentuated in this ceremony even more than it had been in the last coronations. However, my main point here is about solemnity and ceremonial.
Solemnity and ceremonial the official Anglicans do «studiedly», even «faultlessly».
I watched excerpts but the feeling that the thing itself was anachronistic was foremost in mind. The ceremonies of the Tridentine Mass are «old» but still «signify». The coronation ceremonies are contradictory in a constitutional monarchy, in that very Anglican indeed.
You're quite right, and that's probably the difference between pageantry (or "pomp and circumstance") and liturgical solemnity such as Catholics experience it week in, week out at the TLM. I know that my local Solemn Mass seems totally natural, unselfconscious, it's not a stage production, it's just the way things ought to be.
It seems that the vestments worn by the Abbey clergy were on loan from Westminster Cathedral, the items being considered more «splendid» than their own.
How can Fr. Joseph Selinger state that this was a Catholic Mass without there having been a consecrated Eucharist? Wasn't it more of a mimic of the Catholic Mass with a symbolic consecration? Shouldn't Catholics be reminded that this Mass was a protestant liturgy, not the Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass?
If you read carefully, he is not saying there was a Catholic Mass at the coronation, but only that the Catholic Mass, *like* the coronation, hides the most solemn moment (assuming the ad orientem stance). There is nothing in this article that asserts the sacramental validity of anything Anglican. Thank you for requesting a clarification.
Peter, feel free do delete my comment. It's no long relevant.
I could delete it if you wish, but I think it's helpful to have the clarification in case anyone else is puzzled and thinks I'm promoting Anglicanism! (God forbid I should do that.)
Okay Peter, let's keep it for that purpose, but please know that I in no way perceived that you or Fr. Selinger were promoting Anglicanism. Nor do I think anyone else would even if they, too, misinterpreted the reference to the Catholic Mass. God bless
Thank you for the clarification Peter.
Baptism of Desire? I didn’t at any stage witness anything I would call mimicry. I too however thought of a symbolic consecration looking forward to the return to the real one. The Catholic Sacrifice of the Mass is gradually being reapproached with the protestantisers becoming far less virulent. I must find out more about the first King Charles.